Lyon, France: Slowing Down & Making Time for Family

Is it your dream to move to France? Are you itching to pack your bags and move to the land of baguettes and berets? Do you think the foodie-friendly atmosphere of Lyon might be just what the doctor ordered?

In Episode 4, Season 2 of Creating Your Happy Place, Mary Clavieres shares how she and her hubby moved their family from their fast-paced city life in Hoboken New Jersey to the quiet outskirts of Lyon, France in Feb 2022, and how their 5 and 8 years old daughters have adjusted to living like the French.

When Mary's not devouring French pastries she's putting her impressive 14-year experience at a top pharmaceutical company to good use as a change management consultant. Whether it's a small firm or a bigwig Fortune 100 company,  she helps teams transform and thrive, by their side to help them build stronger teams and operate their businesses more strategically.

Mary also hosts the 'Brief Transitions' podcast. She dives deep into life's major changes like careers, parenting, and health. She's been featured in Forbes, Business Insider, NPR, Thrive Global, Authority Magazine, and even NBC News.

- - Where to find Mary - -

For those interested in learning more about Mary's work or podcast:

Website: maryclavieres.com
Podcast: brieftransitions.com
Instagram: @mary.clavieres
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mary-clavieres-19917a7/

- - About the host - -

Rebecca West is a business coach for ambitious residential interior designers who are determined to become the only designer their clients and contractors call.

She's also obsessed with creating happy homes, so if you need some advice for your home you can check out her book Happy Starts at Home or sign up for a via-Zoom Design Helpline. 

Rebecca can't resist a costume party or a cat video, and has a weakness for Oreos, Taco Bell, and Scotch whiskey. 😁

🙏 If you like this podcast, make sure to review, subscribe, or share! 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Rebecca: Welcome to Creating Your Happy Place, a podcast that explores what it takes to create your happy place and then empowers you to do whatever it takes to make sure that your home makes you seriously happy. I'm Rebecca West, host of Creating Your Happy Place and author of the book, Happy Starts At Home, and I'm so glad you're here.

Now, this season we're having fun exploring the idea of becoming an expat and setting up a home outside of the United States. It might sound like a great adventure but it comes with its own set of unique challenges. Here in the United States, we have not just a remarkable amount of choice when it comes to finding things that suit our personal style, but we're also used to being able to get whatever we want, pretty much whenever we want it, and it is not necessarily the same everywhere around the world. 

Today we're chatting with Mary Clavier, who moved to Lyon France with her husband and her two daughters in February, 2022. She went [00:01:00] from being a homeowner in the States to a renter in Lyon and today she's gonna share some of the challenges that came with these big changes and her advice for anyone thinking of making a similar move.

When she's not sharing her relocation adventures on a podcast, Mary's helping other people successfully navigate work and life transitions, both as director of her company, Mary Clavier Consulting, where she helps businesses small and large, build stronger teams and operate their businesses more strategically.

As well as through her podcast Brief Transitions where she talks about actionable ways to deal with life's big changes related to things like career, parenting, and health. I am so excited to have this conversation and welcome her to the show today. Hello Mary!

[00:01:43] Mary: Hi, Rebecca. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:46] Rebecca: I am so excited to have this conversation. Before we dive let's get our listeners a little bit oriented. Where were you living before you moved to Lyon and, in what kind of a home?

[00:01:57] Mary: I was in New Jersey more specifically, I [00:02:00] was in Hoboken, New Jersey. So it's a small and very populated city right outside of Manhattan, right across the river, and we were in an apartment building and we owned our unit. 

[00:02:12] Rebecca: That's an interesting place to start because of course it is such a populated area were you kind of already accustomed to living in smaller homes, smaller spaces?

[00:02:20] Mary: Yeah. We had been in Hoboken for at least, geez, at least 15 years, maybe close to 20. So I was first in a one bedroom and then a two bedroom. And then most recently before we moved, we were in a three bedroom. So by Hoboken standards, that's pretty large.

[00:02:39] Rebecca: Yeah.

[00:02:39] Mary: Um, but, um, we had always been used to, yeah, the, the space that we have, is it, we don't have extra storage. We can't, you know, hide stuff in our garage spot or anything like that. 

[00:02:52] Rebecca: not suburban living?

[00:02:53] Mary: No.

[00:02:54] Rebecca: No. Okay. So that's where you were and you had two daughters when you were making this big move and [00:03:00] what ages?

[00:03:00] Mary: At the time they were eight and five.

[00:03:04] Rebecca: Eight and five. Okay. So what led to this opportunity to move to France?

[00:03:08] Mary: So my husband actually took a new job, so it was all about this new opportunity he had, and we decided, okay, let's go for it. 

[00:03:18] Rebecca: That means that you were able to kind of more easily navigate one of the challenges of moving abroad, the whole Visa thing. You had a work sponsored opportunity, which is a little bit easier.

[00:03:28] Mary: Yes. Well actually, so my husband is French 

[00:03:31] Rebecca: Yeah. Even easier, easier. 

[00:03:33] Mary: Yes. And a few years ago, I mean, we both agreed, I was gonna say I insisted, but we both agreed that we would get the girls dual citizenship. And I had actually worked over the years on getting my own citizenship. So, which you can get through marriage, but you have to also pass a French language test. So there's like a process and a lot of papers. But over these last few years we had been doing all that. So [00:04:00] it actually helped in two ways. The first way was we didn't even need work papers for him to take the job and then for the actual moving the paperwork was much easier because we were already all citizens. And that I recognize is a huge, huge I don't even know what I would say, a pass in a way, like... 

[00:04:20] Rebecca: Right. It's not something that everybody can replicate, obviously. 

[00:04:23] Mary: Right!

[00:04:24] Rebecca: But luckily this conversation isn't about figuring out how to get the government, okay with you moving there. It's about figuring out how to set up home once you're there. So let's actually dive into that. 

So first, for anybody who doesn't know, where is Lyon in France?

[00:04:38] Mary: So I would say most people are most familiar with Paris. It's about five hours south and a little bit east. It's really central in the country.

[00:04:49] Rebecca: And it's supposed to be kind of um, a big foodie destination.

[00:04:53] Mary: Yes, it's like, it's the gastro capital capital of gastronomy. There, I mean, France in general, you know, is very up on the food, but yes, it's, it's a big center for that. It's, I think, the third largest city in France. We're about two hours from the Alps and about three... I would say... between three and four hours from the French coast, like the, the Riviera.

[00:05:20] Rebecca: Just sounds so fancy, doesn't it? 

[00:05:22] Mary: Yeah. 

[00:05:22] Rebecca: I'm just a couple hours from the Alps. No big deal.

[00:05:24] Mary: Yeah, it is. It is pretty cool, I have to say. It's pretty cool.

[00:05:28] Rebecca: So when you were thinking about this move, what did you think was going to be most different or hardest? And is that what ended up being most different or hardest?

[00:05:40] Mary: Hmm. So many things to choose from. I would say going in, I thought I was going to have the hardest time adjusting because of our family unit of four I speak French the least well, I would say. My daughters grew up bilingual, [00:06:00] so I thought I would have a hard time adjusting from that perspective and also that I work from home, so I would have to create my own network somehow and really go out and make friends, and that did turn out to be true.

I would say what unexpectedly happened was I saw my husband having to adapt to living in France again. He had been out of the country for at least 15 years and it was, it was very different for him to adjust back, and I hadn't expected that.

[00:06:32] Rebecca: Interesting. Like, in what ways? Can you identify some ways that that showed up?

[00:06:37] Mary: Yes, lots of ways. Um, the culture, I would say the work culture, cause it's very different than American work culture. And he had just been working in the US for so long. Also I think he just got used to a lot of the conveniences. You mentioned convenience on the, at the beginning I was like, yes, that is spot on. 

[00:06:53] Rebecca: Yeah, there's no instant gratification. 

[00:06:56] Mary: No, none. Like zero. And coming from [00:07:00] Hoboken, it's even a bigger stretch cuz it's really a city compared to being in the suburbs, for example. 

[00:07:06] Rebecca: Well, yeah, Lyon may be the third biggest city in France, but it's probably not big compared to Hoboken and just the whole Manhattan area of that part of the US.

[00:07:17] Mary: Right. 

[00:07:18] Rebecca: Interesting. So quick question on the work culture, my understanding is they work a lot fewer hours, but also it's a bit more of a traditional work culture, what was it that he was, he found so different? 

[00:07:31] Mary: I think a little bit of everything. I think he moved from a more global environment to... it's still global, but a lot more French-centered. So that's something, um, and just the style, I guess the style of the people and the interactions. I can't speak to it that much cuz I'm not in the office with him, but, either they don't really do small talk or it's not in the same way. You know, those kinds of things... 

[00:07:56] Rebecca: Yeah. And I suspect that when you are the person in the family who's [00:08:00] French, you're not thinking that this is going to be a transition so it probably can surprise you and hit you a little harder when you're like, oh, I, I didn't see this coming. 

[00:08:09] Mary: I think he was more concerned for us and I don't know if how much he real realizes it. Maybe I realize it more than him. He still notices though. Yeah, the conveniences for sure.

[00:08:19] Rebecca: So he's working outta the house in an office. Your daughters are going to school and you are working from home. And are you actually working from home or did you go to a co-working space... 

[00:08:28] Mary: I mostly work from home. I haven't joined a co-working space. I considered it, but this first year while we were still kind of getting situated and settled, there was a lot of just moving pieces with getting everything in order that I didn't, I didn't commit to also joining a co-working space. 

[00:08:45] Rebecca: Let's actually talk about some of those logistics. So first of all, you found a place, is it a house, is it an apartment? And did you find it by yourself? Did you use an agent? What were those logistics? 

[00:08:55] Mary: Yeah, it's a house. We're a little bit outside of the city center, so we can take [00:09:00] a bus to get into Lyon very easily, but we're what I would consider the suburbs of Lyon.

So we're in a house and it's in like a little development, which is not very common for France. I said, wow, we have the most American looking place in France. Um, it's, so the way we found it, yes, we did use an, an agency. They came recommended from my husband's work. It's very difficult, or it was at the time, we were looking around the holidays last year, and it's just a time where there's not much on the market to begin with. 

And then, the other thing in France they noticed is that people don't move as often. Once they buy their house, they plan to stay there. I mean, for the most part, much more than Americans. American culture, you move for your job or you move because of a different opportunity and they don't do that as much here. So there's not as much turnover on the market. 

[00:09:55] Rebecca: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:56] Mary: And then we didn't have many choices. We tried to set up appointments for [00:10:00] a couple, I mean, some of them what they require for even looking at like a security deposit is so high that we were like, okay, that doesn't make sense for us either. Um, and this is actually the first house that my husband saw. He came by himself for a work trip and he sent me pictures and I, and I was like, oh, that looks great. We should take it, because really there was, there was nothing to see. We didn't have other appointments set up and he texted me back, he said, I already did. [laughing] 

So the way it works here, this might be interesting for your listeners the way it works is one person can see the house at a time. So once you make an appointment with the agency, you have the first rights to choose if you want to take it or not. It's not like an open house where 10 people come at the same time and look, and then you all put bids in. The first person can put the [00:11:00] first bid, and then if it's accepted or rejected, and then they go to the next person.

[00:11:04] Rebecca: Interesting. Now, you had mentioned about a couple of the places, uh, you said the deposits and stuff were super high. Was that because you guys were coming in as kind of foreigners, or is that just how the market works? 

[00:11:15] Mary: I think it's how the market works, but it also is not in our favor to be a foreigner. I mean, and we had, you know, we have citizenship, but it was more, we don't have a footprint in France the way french people that have already been here do, so even things like banking, it's, it's very tricky and complicated to get set up and yeah. So you're considered more risky.

[00:11:40] Rebecca: And as I recall the, maybe this is a Paris thing, but I think the rules for kicking people out of a home are much tougher. They really protect renters, and so they're a lot more particular about starting that relationship as a result. 

[00:11:55] Mary: Yes, yes, that is definitely true. And they also want you to be in there [00:12:00] longer cuz they don't wanna keep having to look for new people. They just, they wanna know that you're committed. So the longer you're willing to stay, like if, if it ends up working and you have the profile that they want, they don't wanna keep like looking over and over again. Like if you can meet the income requirements, for example. 

[00:12:17] Rebecca: And were you able to sign a a year lease? Was that typical? Is it longer than that? Shorter? 

[00:12:22] Mary: Yeah, I think technically it's one year and the landlord had said like, oh, so do you wanna stay a couple years? Right. But it's the, the formal, you know, signing was for a year but she was just hoping that we would stay longer.

[00:12:36] Rebecca: Yeah. And then I know that a lot of places in Europe come furnished and others come empty. So what was your situation? 

[00:12:43] Mary: So this, this is a good one. So we chose to move our furniture from the US which... I don't know if, if I would tell that to everybody, but in our case it made sense because the company was helping to cover some of that and overall it would be cheaper to do that than to try to buy everything new.[00:13:00] 

So we had decided to do that even though shipping was a mess at the time, and it took a long time to get our stuff. We still took the house. The house is considered furnished, but a furnished house here, there's only a minimum amount that they need to provide. So they need to provide anything that's very necessary, which is considered a refrigerator, an oven, and beds, and a table and chairs and like a pack of silverware and a pack of dishes and stuff, but like the dishwasher not required. People move with their washer and dryer here. You may know that already, but like in Europe it, it's, it's considered more of a personal item. I first found out about that when I lived in Belgium. I actually lived in Belgium for work for a couple years. And I found out about it there people move with their, with their washing machine. It's considered personal, I guess because you put your dirty clothes in it. But I don't know, in my mind, they're clean after, so, um...

[00:13:56] Rebecca: It's also a very big personal item to be walking around with. 

[00:13:59] Mary: It's, yeah. [00:14:00] Yeah. Dishwashers too. You, you can take it, you take it with you. We actually saw pictures for one place to rent that there was nothing in the kitchen. We would've had to provide everything.

[00:14:10] Rebecca: Including, like, cabinets?

[00:14:12] Mary: Yep. Yep. There. I think it was probably extreme. I was like, how is that even, there's literally nothing in the kitchen, but yeah, they, I guess the people before had put everything, so then they take it all with them. 

[00:14:25] Rebecca: And I know appliances are very different in Europe, uh, in size and also just which appliances are considered standard. So do you have a washer and dryer where you live? 

[00:14:34] Mary: We do, we do. Um, you can have a washer and dryer in one. I actually had a washer and dryer in one in my first apartment in Hoboken, and I said, if at all possible, never again, because it just doesn't wash and dry as, as thoroughly. 

[00:14:49] Rebecca: It takes forever too. 

[00:14:51] Mary: Yeah, exactly. And that was before I had kids. So with two kids, you know, we have the, the washer, we have a [00:15:00] washer and a dryer, but I have to say in the summer, I barely use the dryer. We hang the stuff outside and it dries very quickly. 

[00:15:06] Rebecca: Yeah, find so many Europeans air dry their clothes almost all, all year round. Very different from the states. Yeah. 

Okay, so it was technically furnished, but your stuff finally showed up. 

[00:15:18] Mary: Right. 

[00:15:18] Rebecca: And are you happy with that choice? Would you have done it differently looking back? 

[00:15:24] Mary: I'm very happy with that choice. So the, the whole furnished thing, we were living very, you know, with, with not much really just a table and chairs. We borrowed a couch from my in-laws. Um, but when our stuff came, it had been at least two and a half, almost three months since we had moved. And when we got our stuff, when my daughters saw their things and even saw, my older one, saw our table and chairs and our couch, you could see the difference in her personality. And like at first I [00:16:00] thought, oh, our stuff is coming. That's great. You know? Okay. Not a big deal. But the impact it made for our family, I found it to be much bigger than I expected. 

[00:16:11] Rebecca: Tell me a little bit more about that. What, what hit home the most? What made it feel like home the most? 

[00:16:16] Mary: I think it was just, well, one of course that it was familiar and two, probably that it was so much more comfortable because then we had our really comfortable couch. We're big on comfort. I am not someone that has like, you know, a couch that's like stiff that you don't even wanna sit on. Like I actually sit on them at the store and try them out. I mean most, most people do, I think, but uncomfortable couches do exist. So the comfort, then them sleeping in their own bed, cuz they provided us with two beds, like two queen beds. So they had to share in the beginning. But I would say it just changed the mood because even though we were in a new space, seeing our things in that space made it feel a lot more like home. 

[00:16:56] Rebecca: Yeah, you just, you just touched on two things I wanna comment on. So first, [00:17:00] you know, as US people, we are so used to comfort. Like, oh my gosh. Everything's comfortable. Our clothes are comfortable. Our sofas and our beds are comfortable. Our lighting situations, like we are so accommodated in the United States. Sometimes, perhaps too much, we might be a little too cushy. Um, but that is a huge difference. And then the other thing that just really hits home for me. I grew up in the military and we would move a lot, and my parents were so good about setting up home every time we'd move. And so seeing the same sofa, seeing the same pieces of art or whatever, no matter where we lived, I always felt like I was coming home when I walked through that front door, and it had a profound effect in me as a kid of feeling safe and taken care of no matter what changes were constantly happening in our lives as we grew up.

[00:17:49] Mary: Yeah, I definitely see that. And whether I expected it or not I definitely saw it with, with both my girls. 

[00:17:55] Rebecca: So let's say you were having to make another move and you couldn't take everything with you [00:18:00] for whatever reason. Are there certain things, to make sure you have those touchstones that you would really pack up and get ,there? 

[00:18:06] Mary: I would say it depended if we could take furniture or not, that's one thing. But then for the girls, I would have them pick a few things that really mean a lot to them, that you know, that they use or that they see a lot, of course, some of their stuffed animals, for example. Um, for myself, it would be hard to part with my books, so it would be really challenging to pick which books I would bring or not. I donated some before we left cuz I didn't bring all of my books. But to do another round of cutting there would be hard. Um, so certain things like that I would say, and if we had the choice, probably the couch is what I would say everyone would vote for together if it was like a family vote. 

[00:18:48] Rebecca: That's awesome. I found that when I travel for long periods of time, it's sometimes the smallest comforts that I really miss. Your brand of shampoo or, uh, my husband was craving our[00:19:00] dishwashing soap that we're used to and works really, really, really well. How have you navigated all of those tiny decisions that you have to make when nothing's familiar anymore? 

[00:19:10] Mary: So it's interesting. I feel like there are certain phases to this kind of move and especially because for us it's open-ended. Like we're just, we're planning to stay here for a while. We don't know if and when we would go back to the US. And um, the thing that I think happens is, when you first come, it's like new and different and you're just trying to get through it, right?

So you, you pick some things, you go to the store, you pick what you need to pick, but you also have some stuff with you from when you moved. So we were still using what we had brought and then my parents came to visit and we had them bring stuff. We had them like bring more of certain supplies, especially like certain personal care items.

Like here, for example, a lot of the personal care items are scented, like all and and scents that I, I don't like, I'm sensitive to smell, I guess, and [00:20:00] I don't like them. So, they would bring stuff that we asked for or if I went back or if my husband went back, we would bring stuff, peanut butter for example. Like, there's really random things...

Um, and I have to say peanut butter here is, you can find it now here. Whereas years ago when we would come to visit my in-laws, you couldn't even find peanut butter. But it wasn't a big deal because we weren't living here. Right. We were just on vacation, so, so then we were bringing peanut butter, but now, as the months go on, and now we're at the, the year mark, we got more used to things and we've started to incorporate things here that we... you know that we, it's just like, okay, we ran out and now we have to buy it from here. 

So there's like these phases you, you use up what you brought. Then you try to restock if you can, if you have family or friends. And then you eventually like integrate , like the next time we go back I will bring some stuff, I'm sure, I will sneak a few English books in there too, but I won't, um, I don't have a [00:21:00] predetermined list like I did before. 

[00:21:01] Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that feeling of desperation, like, can I please just get my peanut butter? 

[00:21:05] Mary: Yeah, and it goes for like anything, whatever it is your item is, if it's deodorant, if it's peanut butter, if it's toothpaste. My younger daughter I've tried like three different toothpaste here and she still, she does not like any of them. I mean, she uses them cuz she has to, but it's a bit of a fight. So actually maybe I'm gonna buy toothpaste next time.

[00:21:24] Rebecca: Start making that list.

So, with your home in Lyon, it's about a year now, what is it that you love about your home? What makes you really happy there? 

[00:21:33] Mary: I love the yard. We came from not having a backyard. We had a shared courtyard, but it, it, you know, we were on the third floor. It wasn't convenient per se. And here we have two big sliding doors that are, that you can see the whole backyard. It's, it's not anything big, but it's comfortable and it's nice. And, um, I just love being able to look out and see green, you know, when I'm sitting in the kitchen or when I'm [00:22:00] sitting, in the living area. So I'd say that's one thing. 

I've come to really love also having an upstairs and a downstairs, which, you know, in all of my apartment days, the apartment was always just on one floor. So there's like a little bit of a separation where we have our day-to-day living space and our sleeping space.

Um, what else? I, I do have an office here, so we actually have, it sounds big when I say we have five bedrooms, but they're European-sized bedrooms, so that's the caveat. Square footage wise, our house is technically still a little bit smaller than our three bedroom apartment, but, um, it doesn't feel that way to me. It really doesn't feel that way. I do miss some closets, but otherwise it doesn't feel that way I think because we're able to have a guest room, because I'm able to have my office. Before we had those combined into one room. So yeah, I've been enjoying the space both outside and inside. 

[00:22:55] Rebecca: How are things like utilities, first of all getting 'em set up, but also like, is the wifi the [00:23:00] way it was in the United States? The heating system... 

[00:23:03] Mary: Yeah, it's a bit different the, well, the wifi, for example, we got set up with a company, I mean, I feel like they're all kind of the same. Like sometimes it works well and sometimes you're like, what am I paying for here? You know? 

Um, for the, for the heating, for example, it's, it's a very different setup here because they have, well in this home, but it is pretty common here, the floors are tile and it's a heated floor system. 

We had forced air in our apartment and central air conditioning, which we also do not have air conditioning here. It's very challenging. It gets very hot in Lyon, and it's just getting hotter and hotter. You know, they're not used to such warm temperatures in the summer. Um, but it's, it's, a heated floor. And then the upstairs has like, uh, radiators, I guess is the best word for them. So they heat the rooms nicely because the rooms are small and they warm up quick. 

Um, but the, the tile floor takes a long time to heat, so [00:24:00] you can't just like lower it or put, you know, put it up or down quickly. You have to like wait for it to change over time. So that took getting used to, because if we went away for a day or two, we would change our heat settings in the US and here we don't really, because it will take too long for it to go back. 

[00:24:16] Rebecca: That makes sense. And what about in those hot summer months have you found any solutions to not melting?

[00:24:22] Mary: Oh my goodness. Okay, so we first, I mean, you have to keep the shutters closed. Oh. We have electric shutters, which is really cool. French are very big on shutters here, so, 

[00:24:32] Rebecca: Are they the kind that kind of roll down like a garage door? 

[00:24:35] Mary: Kind of, yeah, they roll like straight down. Yeah. And there's one like master button when you first walk in so it can open or close the whole house. And then each room has its own remote also. 

So air conditioning, I mean, we basically have to keep most of the shades closed during the day because we're also east and west facing, so we are always getting the sun on us. The backyard does not have like trees and shade. [00:25:00] Um...

So, we did buy, cuz we were having visitors in the summer, and visitors like family or friends from the US it would be, it's a very hard sell come to France but like sweat until you're so uncomfortable and you can't even sleep cuz it's so hot. Um, so we got portable air conditioners that basically, think like a window unit in the US but the windows are not the same here. So it actually has like a big tube that you have to open the window and let the tube stay outside the window so that it blows the hot air out. So the thing with that is that the window has to stay open.

[00:25:35] Rebecca: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:36] Mary: Right. So it lets hot air in. So we found you could really only use it in the evening when the sun is down and then it can be, can be cooler. 

[00:25:45] Rebecca: Kinda reset the house a little bit. Yeah. 

[00:25:47] Mary: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:25:48] Rebecca: And it's these things, like, who thinks of that as part of settling in and figuring out how you're gonna live? 

[00:25:53] Mary: I'm telling you. Yeah. I didn't. 

I bought screens because they also don't really have screens [00:26:00] here. And so I bought screens, but I didn't realize that we would have to like puncture holes in the wall outside to put them in. So we didn't put them in cuz we're not gonna damage the house to try to put them in. So I found this other makeshift type of screen because there's a lot of mosquitoes where we live too, so you can't just leave the windows open and get air without being covered in bug bites. Covered. 

[00:26:24] Rebecca: Oh, no, I would not have thought of that as part of living in Lyon. 

[00:26:27] Mary: yep. Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:29] Rebecca: So you live there. You seem to be happy. What are you most happy about? Why are you glad you made this leap?

[00:26:37] Mary: I love the energy here. I love feeling like I have space. Now, it's probably also because I came from a city environment before, right? But I generally, I love the pace. I do miss the conveniences. For sure a lot of the conveniences. Um, but some of them don't bother me for the most [00:27:00] part. Like, like here, pretty much everything is closed on Sundays.

Like no supermarkets are open. For the most part, there's nothing really to do on Sundays. So you spend time with your family, you go for walks, you meet other friends for walks, and do you know your, you get outside more.

So I find us being outside more and I really enjoy the pace of that and also just not feeling rushed all the time again. I'm coming from like the New York area, so it might be special to that, but um, that's something that I really love. Plus, of course, the pastries because they are phenomenal. 

When I first got here, my first friend here was the woman that works at the bakery because I was there pretty much every day. So I definitely like ate a lot of my stressed feelings in the beginning. Also, I just wanted to try everything, cause everything's delicious. 

Um, the, the desserts, the cheese, the wine, the, the [00:28:00] bread, I mean the bread is phenomenal. I just, I picked my girls up from school earlier and I said, oh, we don't have bread at home. Should we go get some bread in? And we went and she gave me a warm baguette. And my, my girls were like, can we eat some in the car?

And I'm like, yes, we can. It's fresh out of the oven. We're gonna eat it.

[00:28:21] Rebecca: Speaking of the food, do you guys, do you feel like you eat really differently there? I mean, you're raising two girls, so the food culture has gotta be a big impact on your, your experience.

[00:28:29] Mary: It is, it's definitely different. I, I mean, the food culture, even at school for them it's very different. So they have, for lunch, there's, I think it's about an hour and a half of a break for lunch and recess where at least where we were in the US it was much shorter than that. You have to eat in like 20 minutes and you, I don't know, you run around for maybe 20 minutes... there were many days when we were in the US that my younger daughter was saying like, oh, I didn't have time to finish cause she eats really slow [00:29:00] and it was just too much of a rush. They have so much to do during the day. 

So here they take their time more, my younger daughter was in a different school last year, and the cafeteria was set up, I did a little tour, they had real full size round tables like you would see in a restaurant with chairs. Like the seat of the chair was for a little kid, right? For a five-year-old, like the butt, it was like very small. And they, they were high enough that the chair came to the level of this big adult table. And it, and all of the seats had a place setting with real silverware and real plates for four and five year olds to eat lunch. 

[00:29:38] Rebecca: That is very very cool. Very different. 

[00:29:41] Mary: It was really cool. I still wish I took a picture of it at the time, but I didn't. So the meals are prepared the same day for the whole school. In the morning the teachers count how many kids are there that day and they make enough meals for that day. The reason I know that is because one day I had to bring my daughter in late and I didn't [00:30:00] tell the school in advance, so then she couldn't stay for lunch because they didn't have a meal for her. 

So, so there's two options for lunch. You either stay for lunch and recess and you eat what everyone else eats, or you can be picked up and you can go home for lunch and recess time and then come back. 

Actually when my husband was little, he went to his grandmother's house a lot cause it was down the street and he could just walk there and, and have lunch there. So it's a very different culture for, for everything related to that, I would say.

And they have a full meal. I, I say my daughters eat better than I do cause I'm working from home. So I have to make something for myself. 

And they have, um, you know, a starter. An entree, like a plate. They have a cheese or a yogurt. They have a fruit, they have a dessert. 

The first, the first day of my girls went to school last year when we first moved here, I said, how was school? You know, and I, I picked them up. How was school? Did you have a great day? Oh, it was good. I was like, okay. What was the best thing about it? [00:31:00] Cause I'm trying to like, be positive, you know? Mommy. I had the best chocolate eclair at lunch today, and I was like that, that's amazing. Great. Okay, priorities. You are my child. 

[00:31:15] Rebecca: But it's so interesting cuz it's, it's just food and yet it isn't. It's teaching patience. It's teaching appreciation for slowing down and for the work that went into creating something. When I've been in Paris, nobody's walking around eating. Nobody's eating between meals... 

[00:31:31] Mary: Nope. 

[00:31:31] Rebecca: When they eat, it is an event. 

[00:31:34] Mary: Yep. 

[00:31:34] Rebecca: It's really very very different. 

[00:31:37] Mary: Very different.  Yeah. 

[00:31:38] Rebecca: The food is so fresh. 

[00:31:40] Mary: Yes. Mm-hmm. It's very common to go to the market. We have a big grocery store nearby, and we go there too, for sure. But it's also very common to do a lot of your, you know, you go to the market for your fruits and vegetables. You go to the butcher for your meats. You go to the bakery for your bread. 

[00:31:56] Rebecca: And they won't necessarily release food to you until they understand what you're trying to buy. Like, [00:32:00] okay, what is this meat for? When are you serving it? How are you cooking it? Alright now I will give you this meat you asked for. 

[00:32:07] Mary: Yes. Yes. You have a whole, it's a full explanation first before they can feel very prepared to give you what you wanted to buy. 

[00:32:15] Rebecca: So what advice would you give to somebody who's wanting to take an adventure like you guys are taking? 

[00:32:21] Mary: I would say to be flexible and be open as much as you can. Because it will feel very unfamiliar. It might seem scary. There will be highs and lows, and I personally think the important thing is to... to celebrate the wins because they will get you through the low times. Um, and really just be open to discovering new things. You know, humans are creatures of habit and sometimes it's very hard to change. So you might go with expectations of how it's gonna be and it's not gonna be that way. So the... the more open you can be [00:33:00] and, and willing to discover and try new things... 

Even the things that I complain about, I also sometimes end up loving them. it's, you just have to be open and willing to, to explore.

And I would say don't listen to people that tell you not to go. 

[00:33:14] Rebecca: Why did you say that specifically? 

[00:33:16] Mary: Because there will be people that think it's, it's kind of nuts to move somewhere else. Um, that it's scary or like, why would you do that? Just in general, some people will not understand why you're moving. Um, they'll see it all as a lot of work and they'll see it in a very negative light. And. I would say just surround yourself with people that are supportive or who have done it, um, or who are doing it.

You know, you can join Facebook groups with other expats and just learn from people that have done it and to try to like cut out the noise. I didn't personally have anyone saying, no, don't go. But at the same time, you know, it's just, I think people's nature, plus they don't wanna lose you, right? They don't want you, to be far away. 

[00:33:57] Rebecca: Well, that's the thing. Yeah. It's a [00:34:00] risk and they're worried about you and I mean, you do have to like learn to navigate healthcare systems and all kinds of things that are really, really tough. So yeah, it is a risk and some people are really risk averse and when you have family, they're afraid they're never gonna see you again cuz you're going overseas. Um, so it's not all coming from a place of like, we don't want you to do it. It's more of a, we don't wanna lose you. Yeah. 

[00:34:22] Mary: Right. 

[00:34:22] Rebecca: Yeah. And it, is hard to do it because you're suddenly bad at everything. Nothing is on autopilot. You're making mistakes left and right. You think you communicated something and apparently you didn't. It is no joke to take this on. 

[00:34:39] Mary: Yeah, it's a very humbling experience. 

[00:34:42] Rebecca: Because I'm guessing you were used to being good at everything when you were in the states. 

[00:34:45] Mary: Yes, right. You're familiar. You know what you're doing. I mean, the weirdest things that you like you go to the doctor here and there's no receptionist. You wait in the hallway and then the doctor opens their [00:35:00] office door and has you come in like, it's just like every little thing the first times that you do it, you're on high alert because you're like trying to pay attention and what's going on and what am I missing? And... 

[00:35:10] Rebecca: And what are the rules? Like how naked am I supposed to get during this doctor's appointment? 

[00:35:14] Mary: Yeah. Right, Right, right. like, is my vocabulary correct? Like, I need to make sure I'm understanding what's going on, you know? 

[00:35:22] Rebecca: And especially when it comes to the health stuff. I mean, that's honestly one of the things that I would be, I will be most nervous about when my husband and I do this, is, you know, when you don't feel well now on top of all the other things that are a challenge, you're trying to express what's wrong and not ...

[00:35:39] Mary: Yep. 

[00:35:40] Rebecca: ...lose your mind. 

[00:35:42] Mary: Yeah. But you can ask in the expat groups, you can ask for recommendations of English-speaking doctors. In Lyon, I don't find as many English speaking doctors. I would say probably in Paris there are more.

[00:35:54] Rebecca: Sure that makes sense. 

[00:35:55] Mary: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:56] Rebecca: Yeah. Well, Is there anything you wanna leave our guests with today?[00:36:00] 

[00:36:00] Mary: Hmm. I don't know. I guess just say, I'm excited for you, whoever's listening. If you are planning to do a move like this, you can totally do it. And as much as it feels hard, a lot of the times it is so much fun and you, you're just a different person once you do it. So I'm cheering you on. 

[00:36:17] Rebecca: Take the risk. Go for it!

[00:36:19] Mary: Yeah. 

[00:36:20] Rebecca: Love it. And if people wanna find you, where can they find you? 

[00:36:24] Mary: Oh yeah, they can find me at maryclavieres.com. It's M A R Y C L A V I E R E S <dot> com. 

[00:36:33] Rebecca: And obviously that'll be in the show notes as well, so that nobody has to learn French in order to find Mary. All right. Thank you so much for being with us today, Mary. This has been a delightful chat. I'm so excited for the adventure that you and your family are taking. 

[00:36:49] Mary: Thank you, Rebecca. I really appreciate 

[00:36:50] Rebecca: It's been a treat. And Listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Creating Your Happy Place and that you feel a little bit more encouraged and maybe even [00:37:00] excited to make your home your happy place no matter where in the world you're gonna be located. 

Of course, if you're feeling less than happy in your home, remember that my book, Happy Starts At Home, is here as a resource for you. It's full of exercises that are meant to help you figure out how your home could support the values that you hold and the lifestyle that you want to live. That's it for today's episode of Creating Your Happy Place. We'll see you next time.